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Post by mtw12055 on Jun 5, 2013 19:46:36 GMT -5
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Post by mickeygubitosifan on Jun 6, 2013 13:59:38 GMT -5
That is a nice photo of him. Do you think there's any way of authenticating his signature, or even coming reasonably close to an authentication? If I knew Scooter Lowry really was the one who signed the picture, I would seriously considering making a bid.
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Post by mickeygubitosifan on Jun 6, 2013 23:33:37 GMT -5
I wrote a message to the seller, asking about the authenticity of the item, and this was the reply I received.
"Hi--this comes from a large Our Gang collection with excellent provenance. I was not able to find a sample of Lowry's autograph either, but based on the provenance, and the fact that it is inscribed to a particular individual we believe this is a genuine inscribed autographed photo. The photo itself is unquestionably authentic and it came from an Our Gang collection in which every other pic/autograph was vintage and authentic. It is guaranteed authentic for the life of the item."
I suppose it would be difficult to be more sure than that about an item this old and a signature this rare. Is anyone here aware of any extant examples of Scooter Lowry's signature that could be used for purposes of comparison?
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Post by collibosher on Jun 7, 2013 11:58:10 GMT -5
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Post by mickeygubitosifan on Jun 7, 2013 13:24:50 GMT -5
Thanks.
The penmanship appears similar, and the different directions in which the writing is slanted could be attributed to how he is positioned in the photos. I wonder during what time period Scooter Lowry would have likely signed pictures like these. His hand seems to be fairly steady, so I'd guess it wasn't the 1920s, though I could be wrong about that.
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Post by collibosher on Jun 7, 2013 13:47:41 GMT -5
Thanks. The penmanship appears similar, and the different directions in which the writing is slanted could be attributed to how he is positioned in the photos. I wonder during what time period Scooter Lowry would have likely signed pictures like these. His hand seems to be fairly steady, so I'd guess it wasn't the 1920s, though I could be wrong about that. As he was seven when he left the gang, I agree he didn't sign them during his Our Gang tenure. Scooter did have a vaudeville career into his teens so these could have been signed by him in the early 30's. The other possibility is that his mother was the one signing his photos. |
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Post by Hard-boiled Harry on Jun 10, 2013 6:58:26 GMT -5
I came across a photo of Fern Cotton with a sheet that some of the our gang kids had signed. She had then embroidered over their signatures to make them permanent. Scooter Lowry was one of the kids who signed it. I imagine he signed it personally and she'd have seen him do it. As he is in the photo he must have signed it before he left Our Gang. His signature looks pretty much the same as the signatures in the two signed photos, it looks like he had a fairly distinctive way of writing the 'L' of Lowry... i.imgur.com/dMOyetm.jpgI think it is quite likely that Scooter signed all three items himself. Education was much more rigid and greater emphasis was placed on writing legibly in those days. Writing skills have probably deteriorated in recent decades. Scooter's writing is neat but carefully formed, he probably took his time over these signatures and dedications, under the ever watchful eye of Fern Cotton. |
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Post by collibosher on Jun 10, 2013 12:13:25 GMT -5
I came across a photo of Fern Cotton with a sheet that some of the our gang kids had signed. She had then embroidered over their signatures to make them permanent. Scooter Lowry was one of the kids who signed it. I imagine he signed it personally and she'd have seen him do it. As he is in the photo he must have signed it before he left Our Gang. His signature looks pretty much the same as the signatures in the two signed photos, it looks like he had a fairly distinctive way of writing the 'L' of Lowry... i.imgur.com/dMOyetm.jpgI think it is quite likely that Scooter signed all three items himself. Education was much more rigid and greater emphasis was placed on writing legibly in those days. Writing skills have probably deteriorated in recent decades. Scooter's writing is neat but carefully formed, he probably took his time over these signatures and dedications, under the ever watchful eye of Fern Cotton. I'm not sure how rigid the schooling was for the kids on the set, but even if intensive work was done with their cursive, most 6-7 year olds don't yet have the fine motor skills to do it well. That's why second grade is traditionally when it's first introduced and children begin practicing the individual letters. I'm not saying it's impossible that Elmer wrote those sentences when he was in the Gang, just that I wouldn't go as far as to say it's quite likely he did. |
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Post by Hard-boiled Harry on Jun 10, 2013 14:07:43 GMT -5
Hi, I think you are using today's standards as a guide and 90 years ago the emphasis was different. There were no media studies, computer studies, environmental concern studies or all the rest of the modern educational studies. In the 1920s teaching was still largely focused on the basic three Rs, reading, writing and 'rithmetic. I can easily imagine Fern Cotton using photo signing as an additional tool to develop the writing and composition skills of her pupils. It seems very likely that Scooter signed the sheet which she embroidered, she was his teacher and I doubt she'd have settled for a substitute signature from his mother or anyone else when she apparently wanted a permanent record of her pupil's signatures. If the signatures and hand writing style on the other two photos match the signature on the sheet then the logical assumption is that he probably wrote those also. At the age of seven there is a wide range of writing ability, some children can barely form letters while others are already beginning to develop a writing style.
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Post by collibosher on Jun 10, 2013 15:11:00 GMT -5
Hi, I think you are using today's standards as a guide and 90 years ago the emphasis was different. There were no media studies, computer studies, environmental concern studies or all the rest of the modern educational studies. In the 1920s teaching was still largely focused on the basic three Rs, reading, writing and 'rithmetic. I can easily imagine Fern Cotton using photo signing as an additional tool to develop the writing and composition skills of her pupils. It seems very likely that Scooter signed the sheet which she embroidered, she was his teacher and I doubt she'd have settled for a substitute signature from his mother or anyone else when she apparently wanted a permanent record of her pupil's signatures. If the signatures and hand writing style on the other two photos match the signature on the sheet then the logical assumption is that he probably wrote those also. At the age of seven there is a wide range of writing ability, some children can barely form letters while others are already beginning to develop a writing style. While I agree that cursive is now a dying art in many places, none of the modern educational studies you listed existed when I went to school in the 1960's either. We learned cursive letters mid-way through second grade and began writing sentences in third grade. I also taught third grade for several years in the late 80's and can confirm it's a motor skill issue. And kids 85 years ago were made the same way they are today. While it's true some kids are more advanced than others, most kids won't be able to write cursive sentences successfully until around age 8. I honestly can't see the photo of the embroidered names well enough to compare it to notes on the photos, but I think if Scooter did write those sentences he did it a little later. For illustrative purposes, this is back of a photo which supposedly has the signatures of two other students of Fern Carter's. If it's authentic, Harry was about 7, maybe close to 8 and Farina about 9. Farina's using cursive at this point, but it appears he first wrote his "F" as an "S" and has to erase, which is a pretty typical mistake for new learners. Either way, it doesn't appear Mrs. Carter's students were any more advanced than average.  |
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Post by mtw12055 on Jun 10, 2013 15:46:20 GMT -5
Fern Carter actually kept that quilt for the series' entire run, and had each new gang member sign it.
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Post by Hard-boiled Harry on Jun 10, 2013 18:26:01 GMT -5
Hi, again I'd simply reply that the quilt/sheet was apparently signed by Scooter (and also the rest of the Gang) so if that is genuine, and there is no reason to suppose it isn't, then it seems very probable that he wrote all three, as they all have the same characteristic looped capital L. The sheet/quilt was apparently signed by him when he was a member of Our Gang so regardless of how advanced Harry Spear's handwriting style was it appears that Scooter was indeed writing to a higher standard. Of course it is highly unlikely that there is anyone around now who could prove with absolute certainty exactly how old he was when he signed the photos because none of them appear to be dated. It does seems pretty likely to me that all three are likely to be genuine and all written when he was still young. Here's a better picture of Harry's handwriting... www.moviekids.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2650.0;attach=4280;image |
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Post by dickiecooper on Apr 29, 2014 17:10:36 GMT -5
Greetings. It says on Wikipedia that Marianne Edwards died on November 8, 2013. Is there any way to confirm this information?
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Post by dickiecooper on Apr 29, 2014 17:13:50 GMT -5
Greetings. It says on Wikipedia that Marianne Edwards died on November 8, 2013. Is there any way to confirm this information? If we knew her married name, then perhaps we could find her on the Social Security Death Index? PS. I do apologize for the double post. |
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Post by ymymeatemup on Apr 30, 2014 0:54:08 GMT -5
I just got an email from Bob Satterfield, who always kept in touch with various Our Gang members, and he informed me that Marianne died last year. He also mentioned that Patsy Britten died on Oct. 7th.
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